[Texas Outlaw]

Very true. I've had several posts removed without explanation.

The most interesting thing on several other forums is the fact that MOST people can not tell the difference between a large long nose gar and a Gator gar.

I was talking to a friend of mine at breakfast this morning and was telling him about the discussion on the forums. He said he couldunderstand my frustration and that he used to love watching the Alligator Gar swimming around the point near Cranes Mill marina at our local lake (Canyon). I started laughing and he asked me what was so funny? I then told him that there are NO Gator Gar in Canyon... only long nose, spotted and short nose!

 

[Texas Outlaw]

Well here ya go guys! SURPRISE!!! They did not wait for the public comment period!!!

TPW released the proposed language of the new restrictions on alligator gar spawning areas as part of their agenda for their next meeting at the end of the month. This has been a hot topic these last few days.

Action
2014-2015 Statewide Recreational and Commercial Fishing Proclamation
March 27, 2014

RECOMMENDATION: Staff recommends that the Commission adopt the proposed motion:


BEGIN EXCERPT:
Proposed new §57.977, concerning Spawning Event Closure, would establish a processes to allow the department to temporarily prohibit the take of alligator gar in places where they are spawning or are about to spawn. Alligator gar populations are believed to be declining throughout much of their historical range in North America, which includes the Mississippi River system as well as the coastal rivers of the Gulf of Mexico from Florida to northern Mexico. Although the specific severity of these declines is unknown, habitat alteration and over-exploitation are thought to be partially responsible. Alligator gar have been extirpated in Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio and designated as a “Species of Concern” in Oklahoma and Kentucky. In addition, the Endangered Fishes Committee of the American Fisheries Society has listed the alligator gar as “Vulnerable.” Observed declines in other states, vulnerability to overfishing, and increased interest in the harvest of trophy gar indicate that a conservative management approach is warranted until populations and potential threats can be fully assessed. On that basis, the Commission in 2009 adopted a daily bag limit of one alligator gar per person, which was intended to protect adult fish while allowing limited harvest, thus ensuring population stability. Since 2009, the department has conducted (and is continuing to conduct) research to determine the estimated harvest of alligator gar, quantify reproduction, understand habitat usage, and determine geographic differences in populations. Initial analysis of the research data indicate that alligator gar in Texas have the greatest chance of spawning success if the creation of preferred spawning habitat (the seasonal inundation of low-lying areas of vegetation) occurs in late spring through early summer. Since each year does not necessarily bring seasonal inundation at the optimum time, spawning success varies greatly. For example, department data for the middle Trinity River indicate that between 1980 and 2010, strong reproductive success occurred in only five years (1980, 1989, 1990, 1991, and 2007). Furthermore, in 21 of the years between 1980 and 2010, reproductive success was nonexistent or weak, and in many of these years, rainfall was low or drought conditions occurred. Because the conditions for spawning do not exist on a regular or cyclical basis, and because spawning occurs in shallow waters where numerous gar can be concentrated in one area, alligator gar are extremely vulnerable to harvest during spawning. To protect alligator gar from excessive harvest during spawning, the proposed new rule would allow the executive director of the department to prohibit the take of alligator in an affected area, which would be defined as “an area of fresh water containing environmental conditions conducive for alligator gar spawning” or “an area of fresh water where alligator gar are in the process of spawning activity.” The proposed new rule would define “environmental conditions conducive for alligator gar spawning” as “the components of a hydrological state (including but not limited to water temperatures, duration and timing of flooding events, river discharge rates, and any other factors that are known to be conducive to gar reproduction) that are predictors of the likelihood of spawning activity of alligator gar.” The proposed new rule would require the executive director to provide appropriate public notice when an affected area is declared and when lawful fishing for alligator may resume, and would limit the duration of a prohibition to no more than 30 days. The department believes it is important to provide the angling public with a specific maximum time span for the effectiveness of an action under the proposed new section. The proposed new rule is necessary to manage alligator gar populations and ensure their ability to perpetuate themselves successfully.




At the Work Session meeting on January 22, 2014, staff was authorized to publish the proposed rules in the Texas Register for public comment. The proposed rules appeared in the February 21, 2014 issue of the Texas Register (39 TexReg 1063).

§57.977. Spawning Event Closures.

(a) Definitions. For purposes of this section, the following terms shall have the following meanings:

(1) Affected area—

(A) an area of fresh water containing environmental conditions conducive for alligator gar spawning; or

(B) an area of fresh water where alligator gar are in the process of spawning activity.

(2) Environmental conditions conducive for alligator gar spawning —the components of a hydrological state (including but not limited to water temperatures, timing and duration of flood events, river discharge rates, and any other factors that are known to be conducive to alligator gar reproduction) that are predictors of the likelihood of spawning activity of alligator gar.

(b) The Executive Director shall prohibit the take or attempted take of alligator gar in an affected area and shall provide appropriate notice to the public when the take or attempted take of alligator gar in an affected area is prohibited. The Executive Director shall provide appropriate public notice as to when lawful fishing in the affected area or areas may resume. An action under this section shall not exceed 30 days in duration.

(c) No person may take or attempt to take alligator gar by any means in an affected area declared by the Executive Director under subsection (b) of this section until the Executive Director gives notice that the lawful take of alligator gar may resume.

§57.978. Violations and Penalties. The penalties for a violation of this subchapter are prescribed by Parks and Wildlife Code.

This agency hereby certifies that the proposal has been reviewed by legal counsel and found to be within the agency’s authority to adopt.

Issued in Austin, Texas, on



A summary of public comment on the proposed rules will be presented at the time of the hearing.

 

[Texas Outlaw]

EVERY ONE needs to be at the meeting in Austin on the 26th!!!

Although this is actually not as bad as I expected, I still do not see how they can predict a flood event in time to give public notice of a 30 day closure?

Kind of shut up some of the detractors that thought the closure would only affect bow fishermen!

 

[crfishhunter]

Holy chit

 

[Kajun]

I'm at least glad to see that they aren't targeting bowfishermen.

 

[Texas Outlaw]

Another question I have... say they predict a "hydrological event" condusive to spawning and close an area, but no flood or spawning activity occurs. Then at the end of the 30 day closure, it starts raining hard. Do / can they close the area AGAIN for another 30 days??

 

[CRACKCORN]

I'm kinda upset!!!!! I offered to take 'em fishin and even buy the beer. No takers to PROVE us WRONG!!! (Whimper). :re:

 

[Texas Outlaw]

Just a little light reading from the January TP&W commission meeting.
I have not seen this posted.
Quite an interesting discussion and LOTS of mis-information!
They still think a 6' fish is 30 - 50 years old! It's already been shown that 3 yr. old fish can be 6' and CAN SPAWN!

Before I take any questions from you, at our briefing in November, the Commission expressed some concerns about the possible overharvest of Gar. Especially during the spawning periods. As you know, we have made Gar research a priority and have made great strides in our understanding of Gar since we implemented that regulation in 2009. We recognized even with all these efforts, our knowledge is still incomplete. There is still much we need to, you know, learn about Gar populations and to maintain those and protect them into the future. We're committed to continue to work on those and staff have been actively working on that and also been actively working with other states to try and get information on that.

There's a technical committee for Alligator Gar among other states that we are active -- active in and our staff has contributed much to that. Among some of our major data needs is finding a way to identify the universe of Gar anglers and to obtain information on their harvest. Our first step in that direction would be to create a permit to identify these anglers, which would create a mean to obtain some harvest data from them. Such a permit would be required if an angler, for instance, wishes to harvest a Gar.

Arkansas has recently implemented a similar permit system and we are discussing with them and other states the pros and cons of such a permit system. The Commission also asked us and discussed ways to explore ways to limit the harvest of Gar during the spawning when aggregations of spawning fish would be most vulnerable. We do not yet have the information to identify specific spawning locations or the specific time of year when Gars spawn, but are actively working to obtain that data.

We could devise a regulatory strategy similar to what we have in place on the coast where we have closures of fishing that are triggered based on the potential for freeze events. Based on our work on the middle Trinity River, we would use such metrics as river stage and time of year as a surrogate for the temperature to estimate when spawning could have potential to occur. If water levels exceeded or predicted to exceed predetermined levels such as high water or flooding events, we could use this information as justification to mandate a catch-and-release of Alligator Gar for specified length of time to protect the spawning fish from harvest.

If someone additionally was to observe some spawning fish and we were able to verify that in a particular area, we could also use that as a consideration for a closure. This closure would only be invoked when those conditions are favorable to be spawning and years that when those conditions wouldn't occur, we wouldn't necessarily invoke that.

Again we, you know, appreciate the Commission's great interest in Alligator Gar and, you know, we seek your input on how to proceed for some other additional measures to protect Gar and I would like to answer any questions or take your comments.

COMMISSIONER HUGHES: Commissioner Duggins.

COMMISSIONER DUGGINS: I think that the reports that we've received recently and then going back several years, illustrate that we only get a recruitment of this fish three to four years out of every ten and we don't appear to have had any recruitment since, what, about 2007?

MR. KURZAWSKI: At least on the middle Trinity, Dan Daugherty's information.

COMMISSIONER DUGGINS: So, you know, we've got seven years of age structure completely missing with this fish and given that these fish, the spawn -- to spawn, have to be mature adults that are 20, 30, 40 years old, and those are the biggest fish, I think we should authorize the Executive Director by emergency rule to, if he chooses based on data from his staff, to implement emergency closures in any area of the state where spawning conditions might exist this spring so that he can then determine based on hydrological data if it's appropriate, for example, to use an example, Lake Texoma, where the state of Oklahoma, as I understand it, already by rule closes all Gar fishing during what it declared to be a spawn season.

 

[Texas Outlaw]

But since we don't know exactly when that might occur, in order not to unduly limit any closure, I would say let's give the Executive Director the authority to use the emergency rule to close it should those conditions exist and make it statewide in terms of the potential area of closure. It doesn't mean you would close it statewide. You might only -- should you choose to close it, do it in a section of the Trinity or in Texoma, depending on where rainfall has sufficiently occurred to flood vegetation. But if you see the video of these fish that we were shown, it was at Texoma --

MR. KURZAWSKI: Right.

COMMISSIONER DUGGINS: -- I mean the backs of these fish are out of water. And I wouldn't limit it to -- I would say all fishing is closed so we're not segregating out bow fisherman from rod and reel. Let's just protect the fish during the spawn. That's just my suggestion.

MR. KURZAWSKI: Well, we do -- we do mirror that closure on Texoma in our rules. So in the upper end of Texoma during the month of May, harvest of Gar is prohibited; so we did --

COMMISSIONER DUGGINS: Well, I wasn't aware of that. But I still stand by --

MR. KURZAWSKI: Sure.

COMMISSIONER DUGGINS: -- my recommendation that we --

MR. KURZAWSKI: And you're suggesting that we would eliminate, you know, taking or attempting to take?

COMMISSIONER DUGGINS: Correct.

MR. KURZAWSKI: Not just harvest?

COMMISSIONER DUGGINS: Just eliminate all fishing, Alligator Gar fishing, for whatever week, period of time or day's period of time the Executive Director may determine is appropriate if the spawning conditions are present.

MR. KURZAWSKI: Would we be -- are you suggesting we do that on our current -- the authority we have in Chapter 12 to issue like we're doing with the emergency orders on Zebra mussel?

COMMISSIONER DUGGINS: Let's ask Ann, because I think she can specify what we're talking about where the Commission directs it or authorizes -- delegates it rather to the Executive Director.

MS. BRIGHT: We can do this under probably both authority. I mean just the authority to set seasons and bag limits, as well as the emergency rule making authority. Kind of -- it's like the same belt and suspenders. So, yeah, I do think we have that authority and we can do that.

COMMISSIONER DE HOYOS: May I?

COMMISSIONER HUGHES: Yeah, Roberto.

COMMISSIONER DE HOYOS: I do have a -- quite a deal of concern with, you know, all establishing or stopping the harvest or the means of capture when we have not yet seen the data or the research that actually proves this is absolutely necessary. In other words, I do not disagree with the Vice-Chairman on the fact that, you know, the proper measurements have -- or should be established. But I do disagree on establishing or stopping ways of capture, ways of means, whatever we want to call it based on not, you know, substantiated information. Am I being clear?

I think we need to -- I mean Alligator Gar, we all have or may have different opinions. I mean they've been here forever, and I'm sure they will be here when we're all gone. Most of the people that I talk to, I have gotten several calls actually since I got into this Commission regarding this. Mostly anglers, you know, concerned about Alligator Gar, you know, eating the other fish, the game fish.

So I would suggest that before we decide to, you know, stop the fishing, the capture, the taking by any means, we are able to substantiate that this is a step that needs to be taken, you know. And by that I mean substantiate that with thorough research that, you know, doesn't leave any doubt on that; but just a comment.

COMMISSIONER DUGGINS: Let me react if I may to that. I mean we do know that if you take a Gar with a bow and arrow, it's fatal.

COMMISSIONER DE HOYOS: Correct.

COMMISSIONER DUGGINS: And you do know if you take a 5- or 6-foot fish out, that's a 40-, 50-year-old fish. You can't replace that, and we're not -- if we don't have recruitment every year, you're going to lose an entire age class and so when -- we do know that they are very vulnerable. If you can see this video, unfortunately we didn't have it today; but if you saw the video, you could see unmistakably how vulnerable the fish is during the spawn.

So I don't know that you need any more data to know it's vulnerable during the spawn and that if you take out -- you don't know which fish you're shooting. You can't tell whether you're shooting a 2-foot fish or a 9-foot fish because you can't -- you just can't tell. It's slightly underwater. And so I don't think we need more data to know it needs protection during the spawn. We're not -- I'm not suggesting that we cut back on the one-a-day limit at this time. I think that's what Ken is saying we're going to look at trying to getting further harvest data perhaps through some sort of permit system or a Red fish tag, something like that.

But in terms of trying to protect this fish during the spawn, this is the only way you can do it and just to shut it down for a very short period of time --

COMMISSIONER DE HOYOS: I agree with you on that. What my point was, you know, assuming we know when the spawn is, I thought I agreed with you.

COMMISSIONER DUGGINS: Well, we won't know -- first of all, we don't know whether there will be a spawn unless we have enough rain to flood vegetation because what we do -- we've heard from Ken and his colleagues is you've got to have flooded vegetation to have the appropriate spawning conditions and that only -- as they've said, it only occurs about three out of every ten years. So first, you've got to have it and then they'll have to determine where it occurs.

It's likely to be in the May timeframe, but it could be late April. It could be as late as early June, but it would only be for a few weeks where the Executive Director, based on input from Gary's department, would close it. And it may not be statewide. For example, you referred you've gotten calls from people about Gar depredating bass. I think we've all gotten those, and that pertains to Falcon Lake I'm not sure that can be biologically demonstrated, but you might leave Falcon Lake alone on this.

I think we're more concerned at this point about the Trinity, which is a prime watershed and you've got the Neches, what, the Sabine --

MR. SMITH: Sabine.

COMMISSIONER DUGGINS: -- areas. So I mean it's not a done deal. It would just -- it would allow them that flexibility if those conditions arise and I do think it's important that we protect these big fish when they're so easy to take.

COMMISSIONER DE HOYOS: No, that part I don't disagree with you. I think I -- I'm completely on board with that. Again, my only concern is making every possible effort to know when the spawning time is, you know, before we just decide to start shutting down a season or here or there because we believe that may be the case. That's my point.

COMMISSIONER JONES: One of the things -- maybe what we -- one of the things that we probably should do is maybe a combination of two things. One, along with our study of the spawn, the spawning season, the effect of the take and the research that we're currently doing, do some additional research on some of the concerns that we've been getting about some of the specific areas, like Lake Falcon and some of these others, so that we can make sure that we address both sides of the issue. Because as we all know, there are those in the state of Texas who feel pretty strongly the only good Alligator Gar is a dead Alligator Gar and I don't know whether that's based on scientific research or just a thought.

So I personally would like to have a bit more research on are these claims substantiated. I mean there's fear out there that the Alligator Gar is going to decimate the bass population of Lake Falcon and maybe other lakes. I don't know. And that -- any time I say "I don't know" and I'm getting ready to make a vote about something, it makes me a little nervous. So I would like to have a little more information one way or the other to substantiate whether or not we're getting accurate reports of Alligator Gar attacking bass and other such game fish.

And then at the same time, while we come up with a permanent, more permanent solution for the spawn and whether or not, you know, there is take in the spawn, maybe we should allow some flexibility. But I would say before there's -- before there's action, we need to be alerted that this is about to happen and this is the substantiation that we have for it because it may not wait until the next meeting. And that's all I'm saying, and I understand what Ralph is saying. If something happens before we meet again and we come up with a more concrete rule or regulation, then I'm okay with that; but I would like to know ahead of time because if we adopt that, we're going to get phone calls and people are going to wonder what's going on and what are you doing and you haven't -- you know, you haven't come to -- you haven't gone through your full process for a rule or regulation.

So I'm okay with the concept, but I would like to have a heads up.

COMMISSIONER HUGHES: If it happens you mean?

COMMISSIONER JONES: If it happens. If the spawn doesn't happen, then there's no rule. There's nothing.

 

[Texas Outlaw]

COMMISSIONER DUGGINS: The point of making it public now would be to give everybody a heads up that it's like -- that it could occur this spring should we get spawning conditions in hopefully the entire state. I hope the whole state gets deluged with rain. But we -- just to give everybody a heads up this could occur and so they've got some notice. In the meantime, we continue to work on long-term studies about do we need to continue to allow people to kill one of these a day. I personally have some concern over how long that's going to last before the fish are gone. Just all you've got to do is some simple math. There are not many 40-, 50-, 60-year-old Alligator Gar if everybody out there takes one a day and kills it.

COMMISSIONER JONES: Yeah.

MR. KURZAWSKI: We certainly have heard from the anglers down at Falcon about the Gar, and our staff has been working down there. They're embarking on study to get some of that information and I've been with the Department long enough that we had concerns on Sam -- Lake Sam Rayburn in the 80s. Anglers were concerned about the Gar were eating the bass there and we did an extensive food habit study on those and they took some -- they're a top predator. They certainly take some Gar, but they're primarily eating what's abundant in those prey fishes, gizzard shad, carp, other things. And as the Commissioner mentioned, they've been around here for a long time and they're part of the ecosystem and, you know, top predators don't typically wipe out their prey species. So our concerns there, there may be some limited effects; but that's not -- you know, the studies that have been done have shown that's -- they do take some bass, but they're taking most abundant prey species, so that's not a major concern; but certainly the anglers down there at Falcon and the people who'd like to harvest some more Gar have other concerns.

COMMISSIONER HUGHES: Do we need to do anything at the Commission to give you the -- issue an Executive Order to close areas for limited periods of time in spawning of the Gar?

MR. SMITH: So, Chairman, I think what you need to do is to author us -- authorize us to go forward with the proposed rule that would allow for the opportunity to implement that Executive Order, you know, based on obviously good data from, you know, Inland Fisheries and subject to notification of the Commission ahead of time. And so I think that we can put forward a proposed rule on that front, get comment, and then we'd come back in March for your consideration of a final rule.

COMMISSIONER MORIAN: This is just on the spawning?

MR. SMITH: I was just talking about spawning. Obviously, you've got other issues here to authorize us to go forward as well.

Ann, do you have any suggestions how we might specifically word that either with the statewide or independent of that?

MS. BRIGHT: What we could probably do is sort of go on dual tracks where there would be a proposal that would set some parameters and essentially authorize the Executive Director to through Executive Order close harvest in certain areas of the state or during certain periods of time. So that would be a proposed rule.

At the same time, I think that the Commission has been very clear that the Executive Director should be authorized to close harvest in the event -- in the event we have a spawning event before the Commission has an opportunity to adopt these rules. Under the current authority, the current emergency rule making authority, the Executive Director I think can do that. Especially when he's got the backing of the Commission. So we can -- I guess what I'm saying is I believe we have a way to deal with the situation in the event that a spawn occurs before the Commission is given the opportunity to adopt the rules.

MR. SMITH: And so then what --

MS. BRIGHT: Does that help?

MR. SMITH: -- I'd think we would add to that, Ann, and not, you know, whether that's in rule or not is that we'd notify the Commission of that planned action, just like we've done on other issues associated with, you know, closing fishing on the coast during freeze events or when we discovered Zebra mussels in Lake Belton, there was an emergency order enacted there and so that's obviously an easy addition to this.

MS. BRIGHT: And it sounds like that's really sort of a stopgap.

MR. SMITH: Yep.

MS. BRIGHT: Just to get us through the point in time when the Commission can adopt a proposal.

COMMISSIONER MORIAN: I think I'm hearing what I want to hear because I share Ralph's concerns. But the notification, are you asking for approval? Because I'm on the Trinity and if there's a -- there hasn't been a flood event in the lower Trinity in years and I hope there's one soon, but you're not going to have time to get around to everybody and ask for their approval, so. But if there is a flooding situation which would cause spawning, I would sure like to see the season closed during that event.

COMMISSIONER JONES: What I -- I think what -- and if I'm not mistaken, I think we have to vote on giving you the emergency authority, don't we?

MR. SMITH: I think that would be the most prudent thing do, Commissioner --

COMMISSIONER JONES: Right.

MR. SMITH: -- in March.

COMMISSIONER JONES: So our vote -- what?

MS. BRIGHT: In March.

MR. SMITH: You would vote on that in March. This is not -- this is simply a proposal that you would authorize us to go forward with, get public comment, and then come back to you in March with a vote on this broader emergency rule making authority.

COMMISSIONER JONES: What happens between now and March?

MS. BRIGHT: Okay. Can I address that?

MR. SMITH: Sure.

MS. BRIGHT: There's really kind of two things going on here. One is something that would be in a rule that would talk about spawning seasons and all of that and that would be what the Commission would adopt in March.

COMMISSIONER JONES: Right.

MS. BRIGHT: Similarly to how we've handled other emergency rule making matters, if there is a spawn between now and then, there is some authority for the Executive Director to enact an emergency rule, obviously with notification to the Commission. So it would be -- there is independent emergency rule making authority if required to protect a species.

COMMISSIONER JONES: So they don't -- we don't need to vote on giving him the emergency rule authority. He's already got it.

MS. BRIGHT: That's correct. And what the proposal that would -- that the Commission would be asked to consider in March would do, would be to help put some parameters on that and allow him to close the season without actually doing an emergency rule; but just through Executive Order.

COMMISSIONER JONES: Right. So the only issue that we're discussing is between now and March, if something were to happen, rain --

COMMISSIONER MORIAN: That's why I'm hearing two different things.

COMMISSIONER JONES: Right. If something were to happen, he's already got the authority to issue an emergency rule. What my suggestion was if before he issues that emergency rule, just make sure he sends notice to us so we know he's about to issue an emergency rule. I wouldn't want to find out --

COMMISSIONER MORIAN: Right.

COMMISSIONER JONES: -- about his issuance of an emergency rule in the paper the next morning. I would just like to get an e-mail or something that says, hey, we got rain, it's flooding in the Trinity or whatever, our scientists have discovered that the conditions are right for spawning and they are, in fact, are spawning or whatever, I'm issuing the rule.

MS. BRIGHT: And for clarification --

COMMISSIONER MORIAN: I'm comfortable with that.

COMMISSIONER JONES: Yeah, yeah.

COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Well, that's the same thing that you were talking about. We've -- you've got the same deal for the Red fish. When we have a freeze and they're --

COMMISSIONER JONES: Same thing.

COMMISSIONER SCOTT: -- living in them deep holes.

COMMISSIONER JONES: Yep.

COMMISSIONER SCOTT: And, you know, but you did notify us two years ago before you did it. So I'm agreeing with what you're saying. You know, we at least need to --

MR. SMITH: You bet.

COMMISSIONER JONES: A little heads up.

COMMISSIONER MORIAN: We need to know, but we don't need him to wait for our feedback is my point.

COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Nope.

MS. BRIGHT: And just for clarification on -- any time that there's been an emergency rule adopted, there's always been a notification of the Commission or at least in my tenure. You will recall recently when Zebra mussels were discovered in Lake Belton, there was an emergency rule to impose some of the draining requirements and notify the Commission; but again, that was necessary to protect the species.

COMMISSIONER HUGHES: Thank you, Ann. Thank you Ken. Ann, by the way --

COMMISSIONER JONES: The difference is -- the difference is everybody is against those mussels, but not everybody is against those Gar.

MS. BRIGHT: Duly noted.

COMMISSIONER HUGHES: I would like to point out, Ann, I really like the color of your jacket. It looks very lovely on you.

MS. BRIGHT: Thank you.

COMMISSIONER HUGHES: It's very nice. Because I think that there's going to be a lengthy discussion on saltwater fish, particularly flounder and Speckled trout, and it's already almost 12:25 and my stomach has been growling for a while, I would -- well, we are going to --

MR. SMITH: If we could, if we could authorize this --

COMMISSIONER HUGHES: Oh, I'm sorry.

MR. SMITH: -- to go forward with the proposed rules --

COMMISSIONER HUGHES: Okay.

MR. SMITH: -- on the Inland Fish part.

MR. KURZAWSKI: I thought we were going to -- we typically do that at the end.

MR. SMITH: At the end? Okay, right. Perfect, perfect, perfect.

COMMISSIONER HUGHES: So, Ken, thank you.

 

[slowpoke]

LOL. Steve was right all along.

The above conversation sums it up.

Because the rough fish are vulnerable during a spawning event and that pulls at our heart strings, we are going to close the take or attempted take of them irrespective of population density or harvest numbers...
But wait, we have missing age classes in our data... Really? You mean in your sample study of fish turned in by BOWFISHERMEN, you were missing data on fish in the age class of 0-10 yrs? Hmmm, I wonder why that is? Could it be that the anglers are after a big fish to be their one fish? No, its because there wasn't a spawn in years XXXX-XXXX. Okay, how many alligator gar were born in 2007 in the Trinity system alone? 2012? You don't know? I do. Millions.

I feel extremely confident in saying that these guys have never seen acres of flooded vegetation that was snow white with fertilized eggs. It happened in 2007 and 2012.

BASS, CRAPPIE, AND CATFISH ARE EASY TO TAKE DURING THEIR SPAWN. And that pulls at my heart strings, we should close rod and reel fishing for them because they are vulnerable.

Where are the population surveys of live fish on the Trinity?

I have said it before and I will say it again, if I thought for a split second that this regulation was needed, I would be all for it.

 

[HardCore]

There's a technical committee for Alligator Gar among other states that we are active -- active in and our staff has contributed much to that. Among some of our major data needs is finding a way to identify the universe of Gar anglers and to obtain information on their harvest. Our first step in that direction would be to create a permit to identify these anglers, which would create a mean to obtain some harvest data from them. Such a permit would be required if an angler, for instance, wishes to harvest a Gar.

Get ready fellas here comes your Alligator gar tags. I would use this as a tactic to promote bowfishing. Welcome the sale of Alligator gar permits, tags, or whatever and use it to fund legitimate research on the species. This will help with a lot of the mis information and show that we, as bowfishers, are willing to help fund the research.



COMMISSIONER DUGGINS: Just eliminate all fishing, Alligator Gar fishing, for whatever week, period of time or day's period of time the Executive Director may determine is appropriate if the spawning conditions are present.

This is the type of language you guys need to help get the rod and reel fisherman on your side. This commissioner is just saying "eliminate all fishing"...lol. So if you are fishing for catfish, during the closure, and you hook a gator gar are you breaking the law. Rally the rod and reel guys that catch sand bass and catfish and let them be aware of these proposals. Persuade them that next on the list could be catfish when they are spawning or sand bass.

 

[CRACKCORN]

Hardcore, most of the RR guys could care less. They're saying it won't affect them because "dang ol fish don't bite gud durin a flud anyways".
Pretty aggravating. I'm bout fed up with trying to talk reasonably with them. They're pretty much against anything were for because they're morally superior I guess. It's going to be hard stop no matter what. A commissioner or two along with the director can pretty much do as they please and get away with it.
The tag system still gives me pause because I'm not sure how it would be implemented or if the money would go into the general fund or ear tagged for GG study. It very well could price the little guy right out of the opportunity to ever take a GG legally. I've been hearing the term "Trophy fish" way to much. Idk. I need a beer. :

 

[CRACKCORN]

Here are a couple to get started on.
I think the biggest problem is most people do not know the difference between a Gator Gar and a long nose.
Please read through them before just jumping in to post. Some of these started as legitimate discussions until a few inexperienced "Tree hugging, "O" voting college instructors" got involved.
(I said that because he likes to come on here and quote me!)

http://texasfishingforum.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/9777428/1
http://texasfishingforum.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/9784371/1
http://discussions.texasbowhunter.c...whunter.com/forums/showthread.php?it=436318&highlight=Alligator+gar+regulations

Maybe he'll quote this one too.

 

[Texas Two Guns]

Ben E Keith building (Budweiser) tonight at 7:00 in Palestine
Who is going to be there besides me?

 

[Leonard2]

I went to the Nacogdoches meeting tonight. I was the only person there along with 2 biologists and 2 game wardens. I spoke for about 10 minutes against the regulation. I mainly focused on how the TPWD biologists are the only ones who are qualified to conduct and interpret the results from their research, and that if they felt further regulation was needed, they would have recommended it. I mentioned that it requires a certain level of expertise to avoid the traps of confirmation bias, spuriousness, over-generalization, and over-reliance on studies with low reliability and validity. I also expressed my view that the sole role of the commission is to consider the research from biologists and the needs of the constituents to make an unbiased, objective decision about conservation management regulations. I also relayed my opinion that in this instance, it seemed that the commission had overstepped by asking TPWD staff to develop a regulation at their behest. Curious to hear how the other meetings went.

 

[HardCore]

I went to the Nacogdoches meeting tonight. I was the only person there along with 2 biologists and 2 game wardens. I spoke for about 10 minutes against the regulation. I mainly focused on how the TPWD biologists are the only ones who are qualified to conduct and interpret the results from their research, and that if they felt further regulation was needed, they would have recommended it. I mentioned that it requires a certain level of expertise to avoid the traps of confirmation bias, spuriousness, over-generalization, and over-reliance on studies with low reliability and validity. I also expressed my view that the sole role of the commission is to consider the research from biologists and the needs of the constituents to make an unbiased, objective decision about conservation management regulations. I also relayed my opinion that in this instance, it seemed that the commission had overstepped by asking TPWD staff to develop a regulation at their behest. Curious to hear how the other meetings went.

Very well said, Leonard2. I wish I could speak that well. What was their response to your arguement? I am sure they were not expecting that.

 

[Leonard2]

I think it went well. After I finished we talked a little about the specific arguments for or against but I kind of reminded them that due to the preliminary nature of the research that has been conducted, we are left with anecdotal evidence and research that can be interpreted in a way that supports either side's argument. At the end, I said something along the lines of, "I think the kicker here for me is that this is something that came from commissioners, not TPWD biologists, and we can't let the commissioners dictate our conservation policy." One of the game wardens replied, "yeah but we can't say that." I said, "that's why I came tonight, I can."

 

[HardCore]

Awesome! Good job! I hope it went well at the other locations also

 

[CRACKCORN]

I went to the Nacogdoches meeting tonight. I was the only person there along with 2 biologists and 2 game wardens. I spoke for about 10 minutes against the regulation. I mainly focused on how the TPWD biologists are the only ones who are qualified to conduct and interpret the results from their research, and that if they felt further regulation was needed, they would have recommended it. I mentioned that it requires a certain level of expertise to avoid the traps of confirmation bias, spuriousness, over-generalization, and over-reliance on studies with low reliability and validity. I also expressed my view that the sole role of the commission is to consider the research from biologists and the needs of the constituents to make an unbiased, objective decision about conservation management regulations. I also relayed my opinion that in this instance, it seemed that the commission had overstepped by asking TPWD staff to develop a regulation at their behest. Curious to hear how the other meetings went.

That's awesome. There was me and then 2 other old guys that were shopping and they stopped in to see what's up. They ask a few questions about mule deer regs in west Texas. I wish I spoke as well as leonard2, but I did my best.